Philip Wingeier-Rayo Interview of Ruth Duck on Mission

Well-known hymnwriter Rev. Dr. Ruth Duck passed away on Dec. 26, 2024. Among other hymns, Duck was known for her missiological hymn, “As Fire Is Meant for Burning.” Below is an interview of Duck by Dr. Philip Wingeier-Rayo about that hymn. The interview is from 2008. It has been edited for clarity and length.

PWR: What inspired you to write the hymn, “As Fire Is Meant for Burning”? What are the origins of this hymn?

RD: The Lutheran Church of America sponsored a hymn competition, and I think I entered it because I was on the UCC mission Board of Directors. It was the only time I ever entered a hymn competition in my life. It didn’t win the competition, by the way.

I was on the Middle East committee of the Board, and so I went to Turkey. They were trying to transition the mission to local control. The UCC had social works across the country. They had schools and hospitals in Istanbul, Izmir and Cappadocia. This hymn was really written about how I saw them in mission.

PWR: How much did you read of Emil Brunner of Niles?

RD: Not much at all.

PWR: What connection did you have when you were writing this hymn between early Christian missionaries and apologetics and modern missionaries?

RD: [The UCC missions in Turkey] were trying to make a connection with people. The interesting thing is that this is the first or second most popular hymn of mine. And I received some letters from Catholics who complain that I am against creeds. It’s not that I am necessarily against creeds.

I like much more the idea of witnessing in an interfaith situation where people have different faiths. It’s okay to witness to your faith and to share your faith. Ideally, in a dialogue both might be changed, at least to break down the prejudices that they have against each other.

PWR: Turkey is 99% Muslim. As you reflect on the plight of Christians there, to what degree should missionaries witness and seek converts?

RD: I’m ambivalent about that because I know there are people in the world who would be glad that Christians came to them. I think that I feel much more comfortable having people in the country themselves carrying out the mission. So, it’s not that I’m against evangelism, but my way of evangelism would never be coercive or judgmental. It doesn’t have to come in and harm culture and alienate people from their family. Well, you’re asking the question, so I guess this is what you are looking for.

PWR: I ask the question because I know that this question will be asked. If you’re going to have a Christian mission and a Christian presence in a country that is 99% Muslim, should the mission be on outreach and church growth and not just be satisfied with 1% of the population?

RD: Well, that’s somebody else’s decision, not mine. I grew up knowing people who started a fundamentalist student movement. The daughter of this evangelist who was a leader of the movement was a friend of mine, and she went to Turkey. I got these letters from her, and she was risking her life almost to try to convert people. That’s her interpretation of the Gospel.

I know I sound wishy-washy. I think that whatever is done should be done with respect. I suppose that we should believe enough in our faith that we would want to share it. It might be a little like in Timothy that we should be ready to give an answer when asked. We see something in your life—What makes you tick? What is the hope? What are you looking for?

Everybody should go to Turkey because it would disarm all their prejudices against Muslims. We probably have a lot more to learn. Or we have to learn as well as teach. “We are pilgrims on the way.” This is a UCC reference because they were pilgrims. We seek, and we give.

PWR: Another way to interpret pilgrims, at least how I read the hymn, is that we are on a pilgrimage, and there is not a set destination. We are companions together on a journey as teachers and learners. We are going to learn from you, and you’re going to learn from us.

RD: I’m trying to remember exactly what I meant. We can come into [mission] feeling like God has the answers and we want to live up to the best of each of our faiths. But hopefully we are trying to go together to a world of better understanding.

So, if you think of yourself as a pilgrim on the way, you definitely don’t have all the answers. You don’t know what’s going to happen to you on the way. You don’t know who you’re going to meet. You don’t know what ends are going to be closed. You don’t know if your means of transportation are going to break down or somebody will steal your horse or deflates your tires. The pilgrim is also a medieval definition of pilgrim as spiritual meaning of pilgrim and not a sightseer.

“By our gentle, loving actions, we would show that Christ is light. In a humble, list’ning spirit, we would live to God’s delight.” Because they [Christians in Turkey] couldn’t say it in words, they needed to show it with their actions. And it seemed to me that they were. It is dedicated to them.

One of my favorite passages is II Corinthians 4:7: “that it is not ourselves who we preach but Christ.” We become like Christ. Chapter 3 talks about the reflective glory of Christ. We reflect the glory of Christ. So, we are not preaching ourselves.

PWR: Is this passage your main scriptural reference as far as inspiring this stanza? Or was it for the whole hymn?

RD: Yes. I think that this is the theology of preaching and missions. Paul says, “Be what we preach.” That would seem to be contradicted here. The point here is not the preaching, it is preaching Christ, but even more in this preaching context you’re showing Christ, not preaching him. You’re not preaching yourself; you’re preaching Christ. I don’t know if Mother Teresa converted many people. But she showed Christ to many, many people. And they were Christ to her.

The other passage that is important is Mathew 4:14-16: that we are the salt of the earth and the light of the world.

PWR: Yes, like adding flavor to the dish, not by taking over, but by adding flavor to the whole plate. Is this what you meant by the salt of the earth?

RD: In that period of my life, I don’t know if I would call it dating, but I was in an interesting, complicated relationship with a man who was Bahai, and he was really pressing me on my faith, so I was having to answer these questions.

Even at the age of 37, I was a little idealistic. I know that at that stage a person may see part of the truth that they didn’t see before. And you don’t see all the things, as when you know better. But there is a spirit that I really like.

This is the hope of what mission could do—signs of oneness. This is what people can see: we are signs.

PWR: Meaning unity?

RD: And we might want to express it differently. Here it is in the next line: “‘mid earth’s peoples, many hued.”

PWR: What does hued mean?

RD: I was thinking of a rainbow. You know it rhymes. I have always been interested in racial reconciliation. “As a rainbow lights the heavens when a storm is past and gone, may our lives reflect the radiance of God’s new and glorious dawn.”

This also answers the question of where we are going as pilgrims. In the Hebrew Bible, God wanted everyone to get along. So that’s also probably behind there, you know—Noah, the rainbow, and the storm is over. It’s a sense of a new beginning. A new way of being.

PWR: Do you have any sense of how this hymn might affect the way that the singers and hearers of this hymn carry out and see their mission work?

RD: Again, I might be a little naïve, but I would expect that most people involved in mission work would look at it at lot this way. Some of them might be offended like a few Catholics are offended, but I hope that this is what a lot of them would aspire to. Don’t you think? I do, but there is also a lot of variety.

This hymn was written in the context of Turkey where open proselytism by Christians is not legal, though it doesn’t mean that some people can’t do it. I know that won’t be where everyone is, perhaps, but I also hope that you are going with the idea of respecting and listening to the people that you are working with. I believe that whatever your theology of mission, you have to do a lot of listening and a lot respecting, and at that point you are going to be more able to have people hear your message.

I hope also that the hymn would remind you of the side of missions that is more than speaking and doing but also being. Because I think that we do more to draw people to Christ by who we are sometimes than by what we say or what we do.

It is really a tribute to those missionaries who I saw those two weeks in Turkey. I saw this in them, and I’m sure that you want to exemplify that. I’m not opposed to preaching, but we should preach Christ and not ourselves.

PWR: I was just playing the devil’s advocate about church growth, and not seeking converts, but do you think there is a connection between mission and evangelism?

RD: I think there really is. Life in Christ is not easy, of course, but it is a great thing, and I think that we should want to share it. I don’t think people learn very much by coercion anyhow.

PWR: Thank you for reflecting on the context and the meaning of your hymn “For Fire is Meant for Burning.” I learned so much that I would not have known by simply reading or singing the hymn.

RD: Thank you for asking. I hope the hymn inspires people to reflect on how they understand mission.